In the months leading up to Gemini G.E.L.’s 60th anniversary, Charley Goldstein and Chela Simón-Trench sat down with Ellen Grinstein, Ayn Grinstein, Suzanne Felsen, and Joni Moisant Weyl—the four women now at the helm of the legendary Los Angeles print workshop founded in 1966 by Stanley Grinstein and Sidney Felsen. In conjunction with Robert Rauschenberg at Gemini G.E.L.: Celebrating Four Decades of Innovation and Collaboration, they reflected on Gemini’s origins as a radical space, the spirit of experimentation Rauschenberg helped instill there, and the workshop’s evolution across decades of innovation. What follows is an intimate conversation about legacy, process, and the future of printmaking at Gemini and beyond. 

Charley: Is Gemini fundamentally a workshop for experimentation, a gallery with an archive, or a hybrid? 

Ellen: It's kind of all of it.

Joni: It's a hybrid. I think that's the best description. It's evolved in the past 60 years, but it's a workshop, it’s a gallery, it’s all of it. 

Suzanne: It’s evolved, but I will say, we still really have the same model as far as inviting artists. They become a family in a way and continue to return to Gemini several times throughout their lifetime. Richard Serra worked here for 53 years and the history of Rauschenberg is decades and decades. We still do traditional techniques of printmaking from lithography, screen printing, etching, plus whatever the artist wants to do. In a way, coming out of our 60th year, we pretty much work in the same way, collaborating with our master printmakers and the artists that we invite.

Joni: And some of our best recommendations come from the artists that we're currently working with. That's been the history throughout the years going back to Rauschenberg bringing in Frank Stella, John Baldessari bringing in Analia Saban, Elizabeth Murray bringing in Julie Mehretu. 

Charley: So you'd say that what Gemini was in ‘66 is still what it is in 2025?

Ayn: Yes, basically. 

Ellen: My dad, Stanley Grinstein, and Sidney Felsen, who were best friends, respected the artist so much. It's almost like they wanted a playground to say “you guys are amazing. Whatever you want to create, we will figure it out.” For example, Booster [1967]. Bob Rauschenberg said that he wanted to create a self-portrait so we did an x-ray of his body. We didn't have a press that big, so we built one. They figured if they could give an artist a playground to go wherever they want in their head, because that's what artists do, our guys will figure out how to get it there. And so that spirit, because all of us were raised in that spirit, continued on. You let them play and beautiful things will happen. 

Joni: The evolution is that Gemini started off primarily, although not exclusively, as a wholesale business that sold to galleries around the world. With the advent of the internet and the remodeling of the gallery space, it certainly has changed…the gallery itself has evolved into more of a retail space and is much more important than it was in the early years. 

Charley: Can you tell us the story of Booster [1976] and how some of the restrictions helped create something so incredible?

Joni: Bob Rauschenberg got off the airplane and when Sidney picked him up at the airport and asked “what do you want to do?,” Bob said, “I want to make a self-portrait of inner man.” Sidney had a childhood friend who was an x-ray radiologist who said that in order for Bob to be x-rayed in one solid image he would have had to turn around and get back on the plane to the East Coast. So instead, he got x-rayed in 6 segments. Bob's adaptability of making a Booster in six sections is really part of what makes it so interesting visually. We had a press, but it needed to be enlarged because the press itself wasn't big enough to print a 6-foot lithograph at the time. So the press got enlarged. 

Suzanne: My grandfather made it—my mom’s father was a machinist and he actually built it.

Joni: Even when you think about paper, we had to find a paper that was wide and long enough to accommodate something like that. Paper was traditionally sold in sheets and so all those factors come into play when you start expanding the scale of something. That's the kind of thing that Rauschenberg started, but it has pushed the limits with every artist. Jonathan Borofsky made a print that was 80 by 100 inches. We had to find a paper mill that was actually making 80-inch wide rolls of paper, enlarge a press for that, and use a bigger screen table. So again, Rauschenberg really set the tone for that.

Ellen: Ellsworth Kelly was here once and he did an 18 foot piece which was another huge deal. He came in and said, “I was just walking around the corner and I saw this purple flower and I love that color.” So all day our printers were mixing colors and running around the corner to try to get that perfect color. And I asked, when I was young, “why didn't you just cut it?” And they said that the color changes. As soon as you start cutting, its color starts changing. So they spent all day getting that perfect color for Ellsworth. They were willing to do anything and it really was a collaboration. Also the people that worked with Bob, for the most part, were the same people. I know Richard Serra had someone that always worked with him because they started to have their own language. Julie Mehretu, on her pieces now, has been working with the same guys forever. It's a real relationship and language that they develop, and it's really beautiful to watch as owners. We just sit back and watch the magic.

Charley: So in 1966 when Gemini began, printmaking was at the cusp of a boom. Do you think Gemini contributed to the medium’s rise from a secondary craft to one of contemporary art's most central forms?

Joni: 100%.

Ellen: Yes.

Ayn: Yes. 

Joni: Without a question. You know, ULAE (Universal Limited Art Editions) started publishing a few years before Gemini, and then Crown Point Press was on the West Coast—they were doing contract printing but not publishing. Tamarind was printing and also teaching, Cal State Long Beach and some other schools in LA were really active in terms of a printmaking department. But no one was doing what we were doing and I think Gemini’s role in terms of bringing the East Coast artists to Los Angeles isn't fully understood or appreciated. Roy Lichtenstein would come and spend an entire month living in Los Angeles and so would Jasper Johns and Rauschenberg and Claes Oldenburg. In those early years, these artists were spending a lot of time in LA and there was a cross-fertilization happening in the art world.

Ayn: As Joni just said, that's completely overlooked. The LA art scene, as it was starting around that time, was considered the Wild West because New York was where the art was. But the LA artists could do whatever they wanted; they didn't have rules. And so when these important artists came to work at Gemini, and these LA artists came to watch them, or be with them, or at parties, or whatever was going on, it’s clear Gemini was really part of the maturation of the gallery scene in Los Angeles.

Charley: In lieu of your wonderful upcoming exhibition Robert Rauschenberg at Gemini G.E.L.: Celebrating Four Decades of Innovation and Collaboration, I wanted to segway this discussion to your relationship with Bob. When I think of Rauschenberg, I think of texture, collage, and three-dimensional elements. How did Gemini’s printmaking capabilities allow or challenge Rauschenberg to keep stretching those ideas further?

Joni: The idea of printmaking wasn't new to him. He'd already made prints basically on his own and also at ULAE. So he was quite a skilled printmaker but he was able to push boundaries at Gemini of what an edition work could look like. Gemini really allowed Rauschenberg to explore–whether it be printing on fabric, going to France and making handmade paper objects, or going to India and creating things out of mud. There are a lot of things that Bob did in experimentation at Gemini that set the groundwork for his unique works in printmaking and sculpture and edition making.

Ellen: Suzanne, were you on the India trip?

Suzanne: Yeah, I went to India when I was in 8th grade for 6 weeks to work on paper and fabric projects. It was amazing. 

Ellen: You were a collaborator.

Charley: Suzanne, how was your experience on that trip?

Suzanne: It was 118° when we got off of the plane and it was 118° for many days. I was with my father, Sidney; my mom, Rosamund; Bob; his partner, Robert Peterson; his assistant, Hisachika Takahashi; his son, Christopher Rauschenberg; our master printer, Charlie Ritt; and a few others who came along with us. We were living on the Sarabhai estate in Ahmedabad, India and I remember going to this incredible paper mill and very famous ashram. Bob wanted to see all of these materials and fabrics. We were outdoors making these projects with our hands. There's two of them from Bones and Unions [1975] on view here.

Chela: Thinking back to Booster, a print that truly pushed boundaries, and it being on view again. How does it resonate differently in today’s art context compared to 1967? 

Ayn: Well we were all pretty young or not born yet when it was first shown in 1967, but it’s a very different thing. I think now the appreciation level will increase a lot more. At the time it was just so weird and out there so when you see this show it’s going to be different than it would have been, especially 60 years ago. It's like looking at Andy Warhol 60 years ago when people didn’t know what they were looking at, but now you totally know what you're looking at. 

Ellen: For all of us, and we've talked about this, we're almost giddy about the show because it's really showing Bob Rauschenberg to the world again. He is one of the most important artists of our time and I think a lot of people don't get that, but this shows it. We're all smiling because we all knew Bob and loved Bob as a person. We're excited for people to see the show, we're excited so many people are celebrating him this year. He deserves it.

Charley: What part of the Rauschenberg exhibition do you think is going to surprise visitors the most? 

Ayn: All the materials, I think you guys are going to be surprised at all the different materials that have been used. Everything from printmaking, fabric, sculpture, metal. 

Ellen: That was the genius of Rauschenberg. 

Suzanne: And I think how fresh it looks to me. A lot of these works are from the 60s and even our printers walk up to these saying, “oh my gosh, these look so incredible.”

Chela: To shift gears a little, I’d love to hear more about Sidney’s photographs that capture the intimate, behind-the-scenes glimpses of artists in process. How important was that documentation in shaping Gemini's narrative and mythology over time, and how do you weave it into the story that you're telling with Bob?

Suzanne: It happened naturally. It wasn't like a set program, you know, my father just loved photography. He slowly started taking pictures in the late 60s of the artists and it was Bob Rauschenberg who ended up saying his photos were his favorite portraits. I think it was because of Bob that he felt more and more comfortable taking pictures. In fact, all the artists felt most comfortable with my father in both work or play environments. There's pictures of all the artists here with the printers, out to dinner, traveling, it's incredible. He started in black and white and then went to color, from film to digital to 3D to Polaroids. And then, the Getty Research Institute acquired the whole collection of 77,000 photos a few years back.

Ellen: It's an incredible gift that Sidney gave us without knowing he was going to give it to us. I always say he was the fly on the wall that you want to be there watching someone create, because Sidney was just Sidney. The artists just felt so comfortable that he got to capture the most intimate moment. 

Joni: One of the things about Sidney's photos that are different from anybody else's photos of artists at work is that Sidney didn't use a wide-angle or telephoto lens. He was right there with the artist. Photographers have taken pictures of artists working or sitting in their studio posing, so showing the artist in a bigger environment. But Sidney's photos are very, very focused on the energy of that artist focused on something specific and I think that sets them apart from other types of images. And as a result, not only did they shape Gemini's storytelling, but I think, and this is one of the reasons that the Getty was so interested in having the collection, that it also shapes our perception of the artists themselves. He tells a story about them that nobody else can really could have captured.

Ellen: It was that these two college buddies loved creativity and artists. And they got to be around it. And Sidney, thank goodness, had the gift of being able to capture it. So it is the Gemini story, all the pictures. 

Charley: Is someone else responsible for this kind of casual documentation or do you think it was a moment in time?

Ellen: I think both. Suzanne and her husband [Kevin Swanson] have been taking pictures, but I think it was a moment in time. It will never be the same.

Chela: It’s clear, especially through this continuation of Sidney’s legacy, that Gemini is in all of your DNA. So I’m wondering as Gemini moves further away in time from its founding generation, how do you ensure that sense of dialogue, risk, and experimentation continues? 

Ayn: Stanley Grinstein and Sidney Felsen started Gemini along with Rosamund Felsen and Elyse Grinstein, their wives, in 1966. Since both of the founders' passings, now, it's the four women. Ellen and I are Stanley's daughters, Suzanne is Sidney's daughter, and Joni is Sidney's widow. So what started basically as two men running Gemini is now four women.

Ellen: Also, we're all older than 60 and Gemini will be 60 next year. We were all raised by the founders, with Suzanne being around her dad's photography, and spending time with all of the artists, going to India. The artists stayed at my parent’s house in the early years, and Ayn and I even babysat Frank Stella's kids. It is still in our DNA so much—it’s not like they’ve left. It's a natural continuation, with the four of us blending what the founders did. By the next generation, it would be a generation past, but Gemini is our whole childhood. So it shaped Ayn’s and my life being raised that way, it shaped Suzanne's, it shaped Joni’s. It's the natural way to continue on.

Charley: Sidney once said that “Bob Rauschenberg was the beginning of Gemini. Bob established what Gemini became. He set the tone or the pace.” What does that mean in tangible terms?

Suzanne: We all believe Bob set the tone for Gemini. There were one or two artists before him but Bob just took the world in, in every which way. He fell in love with Gemini and he fell in love with Los Angeles. He told many of his friends and they started working here too, you know, Stella, Oldenburg, Johns. He loved everybody and was so passionate about everything. He was close to the printers, he was close to our families, he was close to our dogs. 

Ellen: The atmosphere at Gemini also changed when Bob was here. Anybody could come back [to the shop]. He loved to party. He would do print demos for people. He loved it!

Suzanne: And he worked all night. Literally all night. There’s this famous photo of Bob on a bicycle that was taken after he did an all-nighter. In the morning, he wanted some fresh air and just got on one of the printer's bikes in our parking lot. Bob was just the most gregarious and the warmest person ever and he just wanted to experiment with everything and everybody. He was just like that. 

Ayn: For all of us, he was one of our favorites for sure.

Ellen: He was family.

With gratitude to Ellen Grinstein, Ayn Grinstein, Suzanne Felsen, and Joni Moisant Weyl for sharing their time, insight, and memories, and to everyone at Gemini G.E.L. for their continued dedication that has defined the workshop for six decades.

Robert Rauschenberg at Gemini G.E.L.: Celebrating Four Decades of Innovation and Collaboration is on view through September 20–December 19, 2025.